LEILA FADEL, HOST:
We're going to take a closer look now at Europe's posture toward Ukraine and Russia with Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski. He also serves as deputy prime minister. Good morning, and welcome back to the program.
RADOSLAW SIKORSKI: Hello. Good morning.
FADEL: So we just heard news this morning of a suspected Russian operation jamming the radar of a plane carrying European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen. Does this mark an escalation by Russia toward Europe?
SIKORSKI: Well, I don't want to speculate on the nature of the attack. But we've had Russian arson, Russian assassinations, Russian espionage and, yes, the jamming of the GPS signal all over Europe. Our ships in the area of the Bay of Gdansk are regularly affected by this Russian method.
FADEL: Now, you - we heard our correspondent there reporting about this, quote, "precise" plan for potential military deployments from Europe to Ukraine in a postwar security guarantee. Will Polish troops be part of this coalition - be deploying?
SIKORSKI: Well, we have a large army - over 200,000 - and we did provide a brigade for Iraq, where we were in charge of an international division, and a brigade in Afghanistan. But this is different. We are already managing a huge logistical operation. Ninety-five percent of what Ukraine gets goes through Poland. And so this time, we see our usefulness as protecting that operation on our own territory.
FADEL: Now, Poland neighbors Ukraine, as you point out, so this threat to Europe beyond Ukraine's border is very tangible for your country. What do you want to see from the U.S. when it comes to pressuring Russia for a peace deal?
SIKORSKI: Well, let's first say that when you say tangible, it really is. You know, we have Russian drones and Russian cruise missiles regularly breaching our airspace. One of those Russian missiles landed 10 kilometers from my house, which is in western Poland. Yes, it's good to plan for a peacekeeping operation after there is either a ceasefire or a peace deal, but I don't yet see any indications that Putin is willing to stop the war.
FADEL: Yeah.
SIKORSKI: He thinks he's winning. I think he's misinformed. But this colonial war will only stop when Putin concludes that he can't achieve his objectives at an acceptable cost, and he's not there yet.
FADEL: And what will it take for him to get there? I mean, you mentioned this is a postwar plan, but there's no clear plan for peace. We watched President Trump work to get Russia to the negotiating table, only for Russia to wage one of its biggest attacks on Ukraine after Putin and Trump's meeting in Alaska.
SIKORSKI: Indeed. Putin seems to be mocking the peace efforts of President Trump. But Ukraine has defeated Russia at sea. It is successfully targeting Russian oil refineries. There are shortages of petrol in Russia now. And on land, it is imposing huge costs on every kilometer of land that Russia grabs from Ukraine. This is not a sustainable strategy for Putin.
FADEL: So are you saying the only way for Putin to come to the table in a real way is if he feels there will be a military defeat?
SIKORSKI: If he fears that his economy might not survive this war. And so for that to happen, we need to do what President Trump has suggested, namely allow Ukraine to more deep strike on military targets such as refineries and, of course, impose tougher sanctions on Russia.
FADEL: We've heard the U.S. say there needs to be land swaps for peace. Do you agree with that assessment, that Ukraine needs to give up some of its land for this war to stop?
SIKORSKI: I don't think we should be in the business of suggesting to Ukraine what sacrifices it is willing to make on behalf of peace. That should be a subject for direct conversations between Ukrainians and Russians.
FADEL: The U.S. effort, President Trump's effort to come to a peace deal, these peace talks without a ceasefire first - has this been a successful strategy?
SIKORSKI: Well, there is - you know, the normal way to do it would be to have a secret negotiation in some third country through intermediaries and to see if both countries' red lines might be - might cross at any point. I don't think they do yet.
FADEL: Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski. Thank you for your time and your insights.
SIKORSKI: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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