LINDA WERTHEIMER, host:
This weekend President Bush is likely to sign a new law on the treatment of detainees. So we're going to hear one perspective on the practical effect for hundreds of people in U.S. custody.
Earlier this month, a former Bush administration lawyer, John Yoo, offered his views on the new rules.
STEVE INSKEEP, host:
Today we'll listen to Bill Goodman of the Center for Constitutional Rights. He's a lawyer who represents terror detainees.
Mr. Goodman, welcome to the program.
Mr. BILL GOODMAN (Legal Director, Center for Constitutional Rights): Thank you very much.
INSKEEP: Can you describe your two high-profile clients?
Mr. GOODMAN: One is a young man named Majid Khan, who was a long-term resident of the United States. He had obtained political asylum here from Pakistan. And then he went back to Pakistan where he married, where he was living with his family and where he was suddenly arrested one day by Pakistani police and thrown into one of these ghost detainee black hole sites that the United States was operating, which the president has now acknowledged.
On September the 6th, the president of the United States announced that 14 people, so-called high level al-Qaida operatives, had been removed from these sites and to Guantanamo, which is where he now is.
INSKEEP: Now just to be clear, you've told us your client's side of the story. The government's side of the story is that he went to Pakistan and was recruited by al-Qaida, and that's the issue that you guys will be debating. Now who's the other defendant?
Mr. GOODMAN: The other is a gentleman named Mohamed al Qahtani, who's been a long-term resident of Guantanamo, who we know because there were interrogation logs that were leaked to Time magazine; was tortured while he was at Guantanamo, who has been notified that he will be charged with criminal charges and brought in front of one of these military commissions.
INSKEEP: He'll be charged as what the government sometimes describes as being the attempted 20th hijacker on September 11th, right?
Mr. GOODMAN: It's not clear at all what he's going to be charged with. If anything, these charges may be based upon testimony that was basically procured as a result of being tortured and coerced. He has waited for years and years and we still don't know what the charges are. Maybe we'll know soon.
INSKEEP: So as the lawyer for these two men what have you been doing for them, if anything, that you will now have to stop doing because the rules have changed or will change as soon as President Bush signs the law?
Mr. GOODMAN: For Mr. Al Qahtani, we filed an application for writ of habeas corpus. Well, the case is pending along with many other cases in the U.S. District Court.
INSKEEP: This is telling the government to show the evidence against your client or let him go, basically.
Mr. GOODMAN: Exactly right. And if in fact the law is signed, as undoubtedly it will be, and if the - what I consider to be a suspension of the write of habeas corpus for these men is upheld, he will have lost the right to require the government to prove why and what they're holding him for.
INSKEEP: Well, what do you then?
Mr. GOODMAN: Well, we passionately believe that the laws unconstitutional, that it suspends the writ. So coordinating with other lawyers, because there are many of these cases at various stages, try to get this issue in front of the United States Supreme Court as quickly as possible to have a determination as to whether this is a suspension of the writ.
If we lose that, then all we can do I think is work with Congress to try to change this very unfair law; go into international tribunals and really identify the United States government as a violator of human rights in many respects, including the fact that it holds people indefinitely and does not charge with anything specific.
INSKEEP: Other than campaigning in courts or in Congress to change the law, what avenues will be opened for you to assist your client, if any, as long as the laws in effect?
Mr. GOODMAN: If he is in fact charged with war crimes and brought in front of one of these military commissions, we can certainly attempt to defend him. Now the defense will be hampered by this new law, because this new law allows coerced testimonies, allows testimony procured as a result of torture into evidence. That's what we can do. If he is not charged, if he is simply held indefinitely, forever, until the end of his life, we can keep going back to court, look for other mechanisms within the American law and the American Constitutional system. There is nothing else that can be done.
INSKEEP: So that's what you're going to do for Mohammed al Qahtani?
Mr. GOODMAN: Yes.
INSKEEP: What about for your other client, Majid Khan, the man who the government says went to Pakistan and was recruited by al-Qaida, and you said he simply went to Pakistan and was arrested by some accidental mistake?
Mr. GOODMAN: I think that many of these people were arrested as a result of a need to pick people up. The fact is we don't know what the proof looks like. And this man has never even had what's called a CSRT, the barebones of, you know, proving that he is even an enemy combatant. So he is a perfect person to petition for habeas corpus at this point. And we filed his application just before the new law got passed to see whether or not we can pursue his rights at that point.
INSKEEP: He's a non-citizen. The new law will say that you cannot petition for habeas corpus for non-citizens.
MR. GOODMAN: That's right.
INSKEEP: Since you got it in before the deadline does that petition continue?
Mr. GOODMAN: Well, we will certainly argue that despite the language in the statute that it lacks retroactivity for a variety of reasons and will - at least we have preserved that element of Mr. Khan's claim.
INSKEEP: Well, now wait a minute. If you win that judgment are you saying that because this law attempts to retroactively cut-off these habeas corpus petitions for hundreds of detainees that have already been filed, that this law might be a house of cards, that a single ruling by a single judge could quickly overturn one of the most important parts of it?
Mr. GOODMAN: Yes. All the habeas corpus petitions would get to go ahead. And that's true if we win on whether this is a violation of the suspension clause as well. That's true.
Don't forget the administration's telling the American people that this is a law designed to combat terrorism. A vast majority of the people who are held at Guantanamo have done nothing. And this law cuts off their rights, it does nothing to combat terrorism.
INSKEEP: Bill Goodman is a lawyer with the Center for Constitutional Rights. His organization represents detainees who will be affected by the law President Bush is expected to sign this week. And before Mr. Goodman left our New York studios, we asked one more question.
Is it hard to be an advocate for someone who is facing such serious allegations? And because the charges have not been proven or disproven you do have to wonder who exactly it is this person is and what really they want to do.
Mr. GOODMAN: It's hard to represent people, but it's easy and I think exciting and wonderful to do what we're supposed to do as lawyers, to uphold the Constitution. You never know who exactly your client is, you never know who your neighbor is, or your friends sometimes, you know. But we make judgments. And we believe in our clients and we certainly believe in the Constitution.
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